Week 5 2023 · October 8, 2023
Panthers at Lions, Week 5 2023: who deserved to win?
The Lions beat the Panthers 42–24, and it was no fluke: replayed with the way both teams actually played, the Lions win 9 of 10.
Before kickoff the Lions were 76% favorites. The biggest swing (Q1, 13:10 left): the Panthers converted 3rd & 12, worth 8 points of win probability to the Panthers.
Final
| 24 | |
| 42 |
Replay with same day's form
Luck index +8 Lions about even · −8 Panthers
Each team’s own plays from this game, resampled into new drives 4,000 times: with the way both teams actually played, how often does this performance win? How the replay works
Ten replays. Panthers win 1, Lions win 9.
- 1 CAR 28 DET 23
- 2 CAR 17 DET 20
- 3 CAR 28 DET 34
- 4 CAR 19 DET 27
- 5 CAR 27 DET 38
- 6 CAR 16 DET 31
- 7 CAR 16 DET 34
- 8 CAR 16 DET 37
- 9 CAR 6 DET 31
- 10 CAR 9 DET 44
Three other ways to ask
Each answers a different question, so none of them replaces the replay above.
Before kickoff
The closing betting line, turned into a probability. What everyone knew before the game.
Same teams, fresh game
The line plus what this game showed, weighted by how much one game can tell. It stays close to the line because one game says little.
Only coin-flips re-rolled
Every kick, fumble bounce, drop, conversion and judgment call redrawn; everything else fixed. The narrowest view of luck.
How 4,000 replays ended
Panthers win 8% of them, Lions 92%, counting the 2% still level after regulation as half each. The line is what actually happened: Lions by 18.
Show as a table
| Final margin in the replays | Share of replays |
|---|---|
| Panthers by 17+ | 0.4% |
| Panthers by 9–16 | 2.1% |
| Panthers by 1–8 | 5.2% |
| Level after regulation | 1.6% |
| Lions by 1–8 | 16.4% |
| Lions by 9–16 | 21.1% |
| Lions by 17+ | 53.1% |
Where the luck was
What the luck was worth
Every lucky and unlucky play, weighted by the moment it happened: its swing in win probability, added up by kind. A missed kick in a decided game counts for nothing; the same kick at the end of a tie game can be most of a win.
Penalties: Panthers 7 for 45 yards, Lions 5 for 35 yards
Every accepted flag, in order, and what it did to the helped team’s chance of winning at that moment, including any play it wiped out (points on the scoreboard in grey). A flag in a decided game is worth nothing; one at the turn of a close game can be worth most of a win. Judgment calls count toward luck, pre-snap fouls mostly don’t. How calls are valued
| When | Flag | Win probability for |
|---|---|---|
| Q1 11:07 | False Start on the Panthers (Chandler Wooten), 5 yards · pre-snap | +3% DET +0.4 pts |
| Q1 1:25 | Illegal Formation on the Panthers, 5 yards · pre-snap | +2% DET +1.3 pts |
| Q1 0:53 | Illegal Contact on the Lions (Jack Campbell), 5 yards | +1% CAR +0.8 pts |
| Q2 0:32 | Defensive Holding on the Lions (Jerry Jacobs), 5 yards | 0% DET +0.7 pts |
| Q3 10:56 | Neutral Zone Infraction on the Panthers, 5 yards · pre-snap | +2% DET +2.3 pts |
| Q3 8:43 | False Start on the Lions, 5 yards · pre-snap | +1% CAR 0.0 pts |
| Q3 7:33 | Offensive Holding on the Panthers, 10 yards, wiping out the play | +2% DET +1.7 pts |
| Q3 5:21 | Intentional Grounding on the Panthers (Bryce Young), 10 yards | 0% DET +1.0 pts |
| Q3 5:21 | False Start on the Panthers (Hayden Hurst), 5 yards · pre-snap | +1% DET +0.9 pts |
| Q4 12:03 | Roughing the Passer on the Lions (Charles Harris), 15 yards | 0% CAR +1.1 pts |
| Q4 2:26 | Roughing the Passer on the Lions (Alex Anzalone), 5 yards | 0% CAR +1.8 pts |
| Q4 2:12 | Delay of Game on the Panthers, 5 yards · pre-snap | 0% CAR +0.8 pts |
Panthers penalties, every game · Lions penalties, every game · All teams, 2023
When it happened
Lions’ chance of winning
Numbers mark the biggest luck moments, listed below.
| # | When | What happened | Win probability for | Next drive |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Q1 13:10 | The Panthers converted 3rd & 123rd & 4th downs · 22% expected | +8% CAR | CAR: Punt |
| 2 | Q1 11:16 | The Panthers were stopped on 3rd & 43rd & 4th downs · 42% expected | +5% DET | CAR: Punt |
| 3 | Q2 12:52 | The Panthers converted 3rd & 13rd & 4th downs · 64% expected | +4% CAR | CAR: Touchdown |
| 4 | Q2 10:17 | The Lions were stopped on 3rd & 43rd & 4th downs · 48% expected | +4% CAR | DET: Turnover on downs |
| 5 | Q2 10:12 | The Lions were stopped on 4th & 43rd & 4th downs · 48% expected | +5% CAR | DET: Touchdown |
| 6 | Q2 10:07 | The Panthers fumbled and the Lions recoveredFumble bounces · loose balls are close to 50/50 | +5% DET | CAR: Turnover |
| 7 | Q2 7:56 | The Lions converted 4th & 13rd & 4th downs · 75% expected | +5% DET | DET: Touchdown |
| 8 | Q2 3:50 | The Panthers fumbled and recovered it themselvesFumble bounces · loose balls are close to 50/50 | +4% CAR | CAR: Turnover |
Missing players
Key players (usually on the field for half the snaps or more) who missed this game or part of it, valued by position and quality. The same players are missing in every replay, so this counts as luck in points only.
- Amon-Ra St. Brown (DET WR), out · 1.5 pts
- Brian Branch (DET SS), out · 0.5 pts
- Halapoulivaati Vaitai (DET G), out · 0.2 pts
- Donte Jackson (CAR CB), out · 0.8 pts
- Jaycee Horn (CAR CB), out (IR) · 0.5 pts
- Brady Christensen (CAR T), out (IR) · 0.5 pts
- Xavier Woods (CAR FS), out · 0.5 pts
- Shaq Thompson (CAR LB), out (IR) · 0.4 pts
- Austin Corbett (CAR G), out (IR) · 0.3 pts
Adjust the assumptions
Disagree with how much of a fumble bounce or a pass interference call is luck? Change it and the coin-flip replay reruns in your browser.
Only coin-flips re-rolled
Panthers 0% · Lions 100%
- Final margin
- Lions by 18
- Luck in points
- 5.5 for the Panthers
- Luck-adjusted margin
- Lions by 23.5
- Replay with same day's form
- Panthers 8% · Lions 92% unchanged: why
About these numbers
Play-by-play and win probability from nflfastR via nflverse; kicks valued against each kicker’s own record; drops and interception-worthy throws from FTN charting; injuries from snap counts and injury reports.
Methodology and validation · All Week 5 2023 games ·
Panthers ·
Lions
More from Week 5 2023
- Bears at Commanders CHI 40–20 · replay 22% for the winner
- Jaguars vs Bills JAX 25–20 · replay 14% for the winner
- Ravens at Steelers PIT 17–10 · replay 44% for the winner
- Texans at Falcons ATL 21–19 · replay 41% for the winner
- Saints at Patriots NO 34–0 · replay 88% for the winner
- Giants at Dolphins MIA 31–16 · replay 100% for the winner
- Titans at Colts IND 23–16 · replay 50% for the winner
- Bengals at Cardinals CIN 34–20 · replay 65% for the winner
- Eagles at Rams PHI 23–14 · replay 92% for the winner
- Chiefs at Vikings KC 27–20 · replay 78% for the winner
- Jets at Broncos NYJ 31–21 · replay 37% for the winner
- Cowboys at 49ers SF 42–10 · replay 99% for the winner
- Packers at Raiders LV 17–13 · replay 81% for the winner